How Client Interactions are Changing Through Technology with Ansonia Lumber’s Sales Manager
Participants:
Francesca Halberg – General Manager/CPO of New Media Retailer
Mitch McCabe – Sales Manager of Ansonia Lumber
Video Transcript
Francesca (00:02):
Hello everyone. My name is Francesca. Thank you so much for joining us at the New Media Retailer podcast. I’m super excited today to be joined by Mitch McCabe from Ansonia Lumber. Hi, Mitch. How are you?
Mitch (00:14):
Fine. How are you this morning?
Francesca (00:15):
I’m good, thanks. Why don’t you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about your role and maybe the history of Ansonia a little bit. Just so our listeners can have a good idea.
The history of family-owned Ansonia Lumber
Mitch (00:26):
Okay. Sure. The lumber company started in 1909 in the same location as it is now. It actually started out manufacturing wagon wheels. So there’s not nearly as much demand for wagon wheels as there was in 1909.
Probably not.
So after a few years of that, they started to expand and they got into lumber and other products. The current owners, which is the Klipstein family — I’m not part of that family — but they took ownership in about 1912, right in that range. We now have the fourth generation of Klipsteins running the company. So that’s pretty neat. I had the pleasure of working for three of the generations, and now, of course, the fourth generation. It’s in Ansonia, Ohio and Ansonia is a town of less than a thousand people.
Mitch (01:34):
So obviously we have to go beyond our general location for customers.
Right.
The county that we’re in is a very rural county. It’s one of the most rural counties. Agriculture is a real important part of the economy of this county. So we deal a lot with farm buildings. Some of that is for livestock. Of course there’s a lot of soybeans and corn grown around here.
Right.
But then there’s a lot of chicken farms, a lot of Turkey farms, hog farms out there. So it’s a rural area. So I’ve been here 19 years. I worked at another lumber company not too far away from here for 24 years. I started in the business in 1977.
Wow.
That’s probably before a lot of people that we’re talking to, maybe —
Francesca (02:41):
No, no. We’re talking to people of all ages.
Changes in the lumber industry and marketing for them
Mitch (02:43):
Okay. So I’ve seen, you know, a tremendous amount of changes in the industry. Back when I started, I was working at the counter. I didn’t have much experience at all in the lumber business, but just kept growing, you know, got some promotions when I left that company. I worked there for 24 years. I was the general manager, so I did a little bit of everything. It was a smaller company, so I wore many hats. When I started here, I started as an outside sales person, and I’m now sales and marketing manager.
Okay.
So as far as the marketing goes, the way that we advertised years ago, Yellow Pages and newspaper, those two were some of the main means that we had to get our word out.
Mitch (03:49):
And they were very important. And of course we’ve now seen that the newspaper ads, we still do some. There’s a farm paper that reaches a lot of the agriculture industry, so we get a lot of good response from that. We still do that. This is the first year that we decided to drop out of the Yellow Pages. That was tough for me at first because being the age that I am, I am used to the Yellow Pages, but over the last few years, I started to see that I’m not using them. I’m looking up the information online instead of relying on that book.
Now, when you say Yellow Pages, are you referring to the physical book?
Yes, going to the physical book. And of course there’s online yellow pages, right, but I’m talking about the physical book.
Mitch (04:48):
We’ve seen the size of that book that the phone company passes out. They’ve gotten so much smaller as others dropped out of advertising in that publication. So of course we now do a lot more digital advertising. We rely heavily on our website. We’re pretty happy with the response that we’ve gotten too. That was one of the key things that your company has helped us with is making sure that the mobile devices can pull it up and look good and all that. So that’s been an important thing to us. Of course we do have a Facebook account. Again, you guys help us with that. I’m actually not somebody that enjoys Facebook. I don’t really want to spend my time doing that, but I still understand that there are people that do, and therefore it’s important that I reach other people.
Francesca (06:08):
Let’s talk about that a little bit. Sorry to interrupt you, but to paint the picture, who are you talking to more? Are you, is your customer base like 50/50 contractor and DIY, or is it more contractor or is it more DIY?
DIY versus contractor clients
Mitch (06:23):
It’s probably a little bit more DIY, which is a little bit of a shift in our business. Years ago, it was way more contractor base than it is today for various reasons. You certainly can reach both customers by that, but I feel that probably Facebook reaches maybe more the DIY.
Francesca (06:52):
Yeah. That’s interesting. So do you feel like you have to talk to contractors and DIYers very differently, or is it like a similar approach? Or do you feel like you have to be in a certain place to cater to one more? Talk a little bit about that and how you’re approaching each customer base.
Mitch (07:15):
I think the contractor maybe needs a little bit more attention, especially when you’re trying to get that new customer. They’re a little bit more interested in the services that we offer than maybe the DIY, although those same services can be important to them. With the contractor customer, we have an in-house draftsman who’ll draw home plans. We can draw additions and things like that, so that helps get that contractor customer. We have an estimator that estimates projects. So again, that helps with that contractor customer. And of course we do those same services fo a homeowner, but you know, with a contractor customer, you get that repeat business. You have to keep selling every project every time, if you take good care of them and meet their needs.
New technology has changed client expectations
Francesca (08:20):
Yeah, definitely. Let me ask you, do you feel like introducing new technologies to your business? Starting out in ‘77, you probably didn’t have a website for your business at that time? Obviously, probably a lot more face-to-face interaction over the phone interaction. Do you feel like new technologies that have been introduced — website, social media, probably a point of sale system in your store — has changed the way you interact or talk to your customers? And maybe even marketing would fall into that too. You used to rely on newspapers. Now doing more social media, has that changed the way, or is it just this same approach, but a different way of doing it?
Mitch (09:05):
It’s changed the business quite a bit. One of the things is that people expect a quicker response than they used to back in ‘77. Not only did we not have a website, we didn’t even have cell phones at that time. So customers didn’t have the same level of expectations of a response as they do today. So that certainly has changed the business other ways. With sending out our e-blast, it’s a way to get information to our customers a little more quickly, maybe a little more timely than what it used to be with newspaper and, and certainly with the Yellow Pages.
Francesca (10:01):
Do you feel like there’s an expectation to keep talking because of technology? Like more of a pressure? In my mind, the way a newspaper ad would maybe run as you work with your newspaper salesperson, you do one ad and maybe that ad would last you two weeks, three weeks, or a month before they’re calling you back to do another one. But with social media, you do a post and then you need to do different posts and then a different post. So you certainly need more variety. Do you feel like there is more of an expectation to talk more often to your customers because they expect a quicker response?
Mitch (10:38):
Yeah, I think that’s probably true, especially if you want to stay relevant and if you want to continually be accessible to the customer and constantly giving them fresh content. So yeah, it does, I think, take a little more time to do that than the old way did.
Francesca (11:03):
Yeah. And just so we understand who are the competitors in your area? I’m sure there’s not a Lowe’s or a Home Depot. Maybe those are your competitors, but in your 1000 person town, who are your competitors? Maybe like in a 25 mile radius.
Local competitors to a small lumberyard
Mitch (11:19):
Okay. We do have a Lowe’s that’s about eight miles away. The county seat of the county that we’re in has about 15,000 people in it, and they do have a Lowe’s. I predict that that’s the only lumberyard that they have. There are two other independent lumber companies that do similar things to what we do in our county. The one would be maybe 10 miles, and the other one 18 miles away.
Francesca (11:56):
So there’s a few in a 25 mile radius,
Mitch (11:59):
And then you have other competitors. One of them is what we call one steppers, and what a one stepper is is a kind of a wholesale distribution company that will sell directly to contractors. It used to be that the wholesale distributors sold to the retail lumber companies and the retail lumber company sold to the contractors. We certainly have those, and those companies will certainly serve us a larger radius than maybe what we even do. So those are competitors. There are small businesses out there that — it’s kind of interesting — there’s companies that we call roll formers and roll formers are companies that take the coils of sheet metal and they roll form them into metal roofing and siding. And it used to be that that equipment was extremely expensive and difficult for a small company to buy our roll from and be a competitor, but with the cost reduction of that type of equipment, there’s been little companies springing up that are roll farmer.
Mitch (13:12):
So they take a little bit of your business. So it’s not maybe one competitor, it’s a lot of different competitors, a lot of smaller ones that just take a little bit of your business here and a little bit of your business there. I was thinking about the online competitors that we have, and probably for lumber and some of the other building products, that’s not the case. But certainly when it comes to the tool department we’ve seen a reduction in our sales and our, in our both hand tools and power tools, because there certainly is an online presence there.
Francesca (13:56):
Yeah. That makes sense. Like you said, people want things quick, but whether it’s communication or a product in their hand or what, that definitely makes sense. What do you feel like is maybe the biggest change that you’ve seen happen through your time working in the lumber industry? Is there one or two things in particular that stand out to you that have really changed the way you guys do business now?
Technology and customer knowledge have changed the industry
Mitch (14:24):
Well, certainly the products that we sell have changed a lot. In the 44 years or so that I’ve been there, the products have changed. The customer has changed some too.
From contractor to homeowner?
Mitch (14:46):
Yeah, to homeowner, but even versus a contractor today or 40 years ago today. I think they have a higher level of expectation of service than what they used to have. Certainly quicker turnaround as far as getting product to them, that has changed. Golly, the tools that we sell — the tools that the contractors use today 00 have changed so much. We didn’t even sell nail guns 40 years ago. Miner cells were weren’t around and just those have changed so much to the equipment that the contractors use on the job sites. You know, when they work on a riff, they had ladders, and then now they have manual lifts and scissor lift and all that still, so that’s changed. But just a lot of different things.
Francesca (15:50):
Are you finding that because of all the resources that are available online — I know you guys post a lot through the website and social media — but are you finding that customers are more educated in the product? So they’re coming in with a higher level of understanding? Or has that kind of always stayed consistent?
Mitch (16:10):
That changed a lot. Certainly the customer is more educated. There’s so much information available out there that it’s not difficult for the customer to come in and maybe know more about your product than you do.
Francesca (16:25):
Interesting.
Mitch (16:25):
You know, we sell thousands of different products. For instance, in vinyl siding we probably have 10 different manufacturers and each one of those manufacturers has all different patterns and series. So it’s difficult for us to be fully knowledgeable of every one of those products. But certainly if you want to find out more about one of those in particular, the resources are there for us and for the customer. So the customer is a lot of times more educated than they used to be for that reason.
Francesca (17:04):
Sure. And do you feel like that’s changed things for you guys? Do you feel a demand to maybe have more reps come in and do trainings? Or do you feel like because of the customer service that you offer, it hasn’t changed it too much?
Mitch (17:19):
No. We try to, especially in the winter when it’s a little slower. Our business slows down in winter; it gets cold here. During those times where the business is down and you have a little bit more time, we try to do quite a bit of product training and to try to keep our sales staff as knowledgeable as possible. And we have sales meetings twice a month. We had one this morning. We get everybody here at 6:30 in the morning, and I saw that this morning we were kind of nodding off a little bit, but yeah, we bring in outside people. Sometimes it’s hard to get them here at 6:30, but we did have one two weeks ago that came in and and it’s important to keep the staff as knowledgeable as possible and just make them aware of the products and then challenge them on their own time to learn more about it, to look it up because it’s constantly changing.
Mitch (18:39):
And there just seems to be so much more options and product than what there used to be too.
The family atmosphere helps in employee retention
Francesca (18:47):
Now obviously, you talking about training makes me think about how a lot of conversations I’ve had with stores are about difficulty to keep staff right now. But also then to hire new staff, if they’re in a position where they need to, because training is so difficult and does take so much time, as you know, you guys are investing a significant amount of time in training. Is that a difficulty you guys have found or do you have a pretty good team right now and has hiring not been an issue for you?
Mitch (19:19):
Hiring hasn’t been too much of an issue for us. We’ve been able to bring in some younger staff here the last few years. Of our sales staff and office personnel, just a little bit less than half are 60 years and older. So in a few years we’re going to have scary challenges of replacing these people. And a lot of them have 20, 30, 40 years of experience in the industry. We’ve got one guy Dave. Dave’s 75, and this is the only job he’s ever had. And he worked here, I think, 56 years or something. So how do you replace somebody like that? Our turnover is pretty low, I’d say, lower than what the average would be. I think that has a lot to do with the family atmosphere here and just working with employees and letting them see how important they are. It’s challenging too. We all know that there’s a labor shortage. I mean, certainly that’s caused the increase, so that’s, you know, something they have to be mindful of.
Francesca (20:51):
Right. Of course, of course. Now, what would you say is one of the biggest challenges you guys are facing today if it’s not hiring?
Supply and price increases are now the greatest challenges
Mitch (21:02):
Getting product in a timely fashion? I mean, it’s just unlike anything that I’ve ever seen before.
Francesca (21:12):
Is that across the board for all products or does it affect one department more than others?
Mitch (21:18):
Some products have been affected more than others. Certainly lumber was a big issue. Especially a year ago, getting what we needed. It was in short supply. That’s improved for some product lines. Some are still difficult, but the manufactured items we’ve really seen lead times extending. Windows, for instance, we used to get our Rhino replacement windows in two weeks or less made in custom sizes. Now we’re waiting anywhere from 6 to 20 weeks to get that same product. And our Marvin Windows, which is a real important product line that we sell, we’ve gone from 2 to 4 weeks to now we’re 10 to 20 weeks
Francesca (22:14):
Is that affecting the price as well?
Mitch (22:16):
The prices have gone up on a lot of products that we used to receive, on the average of one pricing increase a year for most product lines, whether it’s windows, doors, siding, insulation, drywall, all those. Usually we’d get that in February, March, and it’d be 2, 3, 4% price increase. You just kind of counted on that. You kind of knew it was coming this year. A lot of products have had three or four price increases since the first of the year, and instead of being 2, 3, 4%, they’re 10, 12, as much as 20%. So we’ve seen price increases like never before.
Francesca (23:01):
And how are you communicating that with your customer base? Are you keeping them in the loop on delays and price increases? I mean, so many of these things are out of your control, obviously, but of course, it’s very important for the end consumer to be aware of. How are you guys handling that piece of it?
Mitch (23:20):
Since the shortages have been going on for a year or more, most of our customers, especially contractors, are certainly aware of the longer lead times. A year ago when it was first starting to happen a lot of them were getting caught off guard. They had no idea that they were going to have to wait that long on windows or vinyl siding, or maybe the single color that they wanted for their customers is, you know, temporarily not being manufactured, which that temporarily might go on for a year.
So not so temporary.
Yeah, so those required communication. And some of this has hit the news media. So the delays have you know, even the homeowner that maybe hasn’t done a project in a while is aware of what the situation is. So that has in some ways made it easier and in other ways made it worse, but the longer lead times, the shortages of material and not being able to get in what you want, those have been our biggest challenges, the last year.
Francesca (24:36):
And just out of curiosity, based on your area, have you found that big box stores are able to get things easier than independently owned businesses? Or is this affecting everyone across the board?
Mitch (24:52):
It’s affecting everyone across the board. There may be certain products that they have been able to keep in more steady supply, but I think for the most part, I’m hearing this across the board. I’m hearing it from electricians and plumbers and we don’t sell those products, but they’re experiencing the same things. The heating and air conditioning people, just so many of the trades, they have the same issues with the shortages and the price increases as well.
Francesca (25:25):
Obviously I’m sure, you keep a closer eye on it than most, but is there any end in sight? Is this a temporary issue or is it our new normal, would you say?
Mitch (25:41):
Well, I hope that’s not the new normal, but I don’t see this changing anytime soon. When you have lead times on products,that zfd 10 weeks or 12 weeks or 20 weeks, that means they’ve got that many orders. If they don’t get another order, that may gradually improve, but I don’t think it will be sudden. I thought that last year when we got into winter, that it would greatly improve. I really did. I thought that the reduced demand would get them caught up, but it didn’t help much at all. A lot of them are experiencing shortages in labor, right? And then, and then we had that freak storm down in Texas. I don’t remember that…in March?
February or March, yeah.
Mitch (26:42):
That had such an effect on so many products. Resins and, and insulation products. Still some of those manufacturers have not caught up. So that added more problems to an industry that was already experiencing shortages and the delays. It may improve a little bit over winter, but I think it’s going to be around for awhile.
Right.
As long as the economy stays strong and the demand for building supplies stays strong, then I think we’re going to see those shortages. And we don’t want necessarily a reduced demand to an extent that, you know, that really trickles in.
Diversify your customers to succeed
Francesca (27:37):
Yeah, absolutely. No, that makes total sense. That makes total sense. What advice at this point would you give if somebody was wanting to start like a lumberyard for understanding the difficulties of the industry that they’re in? What advice would you give someone, or maybe not even somebody interested in starting a lumberyard, but maybe — you know, you guys are going to be looking to replace employees that are looking to retire — what advice would you give someone who is just getting started in this industry, knowing the challenges that you guys are facing right now?
Mitch (28:10):
As far as if somebody was wanting to start a business, if it’s the lumber industry or really any industry, it can be so beneficial to that person to have worked in the industry, or maybe for somebody else to have a little experience, to understand what some of those challenges are gonna be before you’re the owner. And then another advice that I would give when you’re getting set up and you’re getting your customers is that of course everybody wants that big customer that has a large volume, but you have to be a little bit careful that you don’t have maybe one customer that is such a major part of your business that if something happened to that relationship and they lost them, that it would be difficult for your business to survive that. Sometimes that can be maybe one customer is a third or a half of your business, and if you can’t afford to lose them, that’s not a healthy place to be.
Mitch (29:10):
And then along with that, the same thing can happen if you’re tied so closely to one supplier, if you have one supplier that you’re getting most of your product from, and if something happens to that relationship or that business suddenly closes, that can be crippling to a business as well. So kind of stay, I guess, diversified a little bit in your base and your suppliers. It’s so much easier in the lumber business if you have one customer that’s doing a couple of hundred thousand dollars worth of business a year, that’s a good customer to have. You’ll spend a lot less time — well, less energy — taking care of that customer than you would with 10 customers that were doing $20,000 worth of business, but that’s, you know, some advice that I would have.
Teachable people will thrive in the lumber industry
Francesca (30:14):
Yeah, definitely. What about somebody who is maybe interested in getting started in this industry that maybe doesn’t have experience in the industry, or maybe even like in customer service in general?
Mitch (30:26):
When we look for, for new hires, we really look at the person’s attitude and their personality. Are they somebody that can get along with people? If an employee wants to work hard. If they want to show up on time, have a good attitude, you know, then you’re very trainable, you’re teachable, and it’s not hard for that person to rise up in the company. So we look at that more than product knowledge.
Sure.
If you have an employee that already has some product knowledge that’s very beneficial too, and we’ve been fortunate over the years to pick up that type of person. There’s such a shortage in the industry in general for labor. Our contractors that come in here, most of them would hire an additional person if they could find them.
Mitch (31:30):
And that’s the same in all the trades, whether it’s electrician, plumber, heating and air, you know, all those. Last spring we hired an intern, Gracie, she’s a senior in high school this year. She goes to the Career Technology Center, which is down around Dayton in the carpentry class. The school was looking for a place for her to have summer employment. So we hired her, and she was working three days a week, and we had her doing a variety of jobs here at the lumberyard. I had her working out in the shops, although since she was only 17, she was limited on the tools that she could use. But we build roof trusses here as well, so I had her working out there.
Mitch (32:26):
I’ve had her working with almost all the employees a day or so. The associate gets a good understanding of what we do here and to see maybe how she’ll fit in the future. Now that school has started, she goes to school for two weeks, and then she works here for two weeks, and she set up an Instagram account for us and she’s working on that. So that’s pretty exciting.
Yeah.
And it’s been fun to see her just kind of light up and enjoy that. And then a little bit of freedom that we’ve given her to work on that. We’ve had her working on displays. Some of our stores here needed a little bit of sprucing up. Guys sometimes aren’t as attentive to that as girls are. It’s new, fresh eyes, and she’s done a great job of sprucing things up. So that’s been fun, and it’s been hopefully a good experience for her. I think it is. And it is just a way to hopefully encourage some younger people to get interested in the trades. You can make pretty decent money in this industry, and we certainly need to encourage people to look at that. College isn’t for everybody
Francesca (34:00):
All service jobs. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it’s difficult. It’s hard work for sure. But yeah, I mean, those jobs are so, so, so important. And I know that they’ve really struggled with labor shortages there, for sure. I don’t think I have any other questions for you. I’m so grateful for your time. I feel like so many other businesses will benefit from hearing all about your experience and things that have changed since you started and what’s working today. The advice that you gave to people getting started in the industry will be so, so helpful too. Thank you so much for your time.
Mitch (34:35):
Thank you to you and your company. I appreciate all the help, the assistance over the years with our website and just all the e-blasts that you send out. It’s been a good partnership, I think.
Francesca (34:52):
Thank you so much for saying that. And thank you so much for tuning in, be sure to check back next time for another podcast. Have a good day, Mitch. Thank you.
Mitch (35:02):
Bye
Francesca (35:02):
Bye.